This is an interesting discussion in which Gottesdienst pops up. It’s happening at the forum of the American Lutheran Publicity Bureau - which in its modern form is basically an old-school “list-serv” that allows Lutherans to observe the ELCA (and the nearly-extinct LCMS high church libs) in a controlled environment for research purposes, or out of curiosity. Think of it as “living history.”

At any rate, a portion of this particular dialogue has given us a rare opportunity to learn from a couple of aged LCMS liberals. Admittedly, I tend to avoid liberals. And although I’m getting up there chronologically myself, I admit that I would rather hang out with younger folks where possible, as I know I won’t likely hear details about their bouts with constipation, lurid accounts of their latest colonoscopy, or how frustrating using their new phone is. So this ALPB thing is a rare opportunity for advice and counsel from a certain demographic tranche of leftist clergy that I tend to avoid.

Two participants in this conversation are the Rev. Drs. David Benke and John Hannah - both elderly New Yorkers with strong opinions about our Gottesdienst “franchise” (as the kids say).

And on a side note - in the years before I went off to seminary as a second career guy, I had a great gig as a carefree IT consultant working in New York. And as much as I am an unreconstructed Southerner, I did thoroughly love my time in the Apple. As a young man, I reveled in the hustle-bustle, the cosmopolitan culture, and the food. I also still love the devil-may-care New York attitude and “tone.” Their linguistic ability to take a monosyllabic verb with an Anglo-Saxon etymology and convert it into every single grammatical form imaginable was sheer creativity unequaled by Anglophones from any region. People often argue that New Yorkers are rude. They are not. In my admittedly limited experience, Chicagoans were rude. New Yorkers were just aggressively indifferent - and could do a lot of things at once - for example, waiting on you at a store, eating a bagel, holding three conversations at the same time in more than one language, all while not looking at you or even talking to you - but accurately counting your change and sending you off on your way within about seven seconds.

So, yes, we can learn a thing or two about “tone” from Gotham’s denizens.

Dr. Benke doesn’t like our tone, and describes the Gottesdienst Crowd in terms of “actual trashing… impugn[ing]…,” and “nastiness.” We “appear not to work well with others.” And admittedly, Dr. Benke does “work well with others,” as his nickname “Yankee Stadium Dave” and his sig line: “It’s OK to pray” indicate. Yes, we can learn a lot about “tone” from Dr. Benke, as he needed no tone policing while praying with people who worship Allah and Ganesh. And he didn’t even use the all-purpose Anglo-Saxon word in his offering. So there is that.

Dr. Hannah’s response was also interesting:

“I haven’t check [sic] on Gottesdienst for years but the participants are giving liturgy a bad name. Those of us interested in and advocating for liturgical renewal find Gottesdienst’s reputation more than disappointing. They have strayed far beyond liturgy and the ‘Gottesdienst’ (the liturgy).

Pastor Hannah’s sig-line includes “STS” - the Society of the Holy Trinity. He has been a member for many years, and has apparently held office in it. It is a pan-Lutheran (at least they’re not calling it Trans-Lutheran) ministerium that is mainly ELCA - but there are LCMS members like Dr. Hannah. STS events provide opportunities to hear women “preachers,” to join them in liturgy out of ELCA hymnals, and to even take the trans-communal “sacrament” from the hands of a soutaned and stoled lady - if that’s your particular thing.

Pr. Hannah and the STS certainly don’t give liturgy a bad name, and we have so much to learn from them.

For example, Pr. Hannah demonstrates the heretofore unknown (at least among the Gottesdienst Crowd) “hold hands with the vested female deacon at the altar during consecration” rubric, which is clearly part of the ancient Evangelical Catholic liturgical tradition from the days of the apostles - though oddly missing from Gottesdienst instructional videos. You can see other helpful pictures of Fr. John showing us how to celebrate at an LCMS altar here.

Unlike Gottesdienst, the Society of the Holy Trinity apparently does not give liturgy a bad name - providing LCMS pastors the peerless opportunity to actually refer to lady “pastors” as their “sisters in ministry.” This is something else that Gottesdienst is omitting, contributing to our giving liturgy a bad name.

Here is an example of an STS Mass where the Gospel is read by a lady deacon. So liturgical. So traditional. So stunning. So brave. Why, we really need to take note, fellas!

Indeed, the STS has much to teach us about giving liturgy, the liturgical movement, and the Evangelical Catholic ethos a good name. The STS Rule also teaches us that “reconciliation with the bishop and church of Rome” are a matter of our Lutheran “destiny.” Good to know. Here are a few pictures published by the STS itself. We need to learn, fellow Gottesdiensters.

Yes, indeed. So much to learn. We need to stop giving liturgy a bad name, unlike the STS. And it’s not just our backward exclusion of non-male-gendered persons in ministry either. As an LCMS member of the STS told me years ago, regarding our closed-minded closed-communion: “It’s the Lord’s Supper, not the LCMS’s Supper.” Yes indeed. Closed communion also gives liturgy a bad name.

And while Dr. Benke is not, to my knowledge, an STS member, he was certainly down with the liturgical ladies while serving as a District President. Take notes, men. We need to work better with others…

And speaking of New York, we recently had an LCMS pastor participate in the “ordination” liturgy of his daughter in the ELCA’s Metro New York Synod. So stunning. So brave. I’m not mentioning names or including links because the matter “has been handled.” I don’t think it was handled well, but then again, I don’t have jurisdiction. It is, on the one hand, “not my circus, not my monkeys.” But as anyone who has ever observed monkeys in the zoo knows, they tend to throw things, and their missiles can land and splatter anywhere. Don’t like it? Tough you-know-what.

But what I will share from the ELCA’s Metro New York Synod is their very latest video - one that ought to encourage LCMS pastors and laity to try to get as involved with the ELCA as possible. I suppose Drs. Benke and Hannah will soon weigh in on the good tone displayed here, and how much this kind of thing gives liturgy a good name (not to mention New York City Lutheranism).

Bonus: it begins with a nice elderly liberal New York “bishop” in a purple shirt. His “tone” is really nice. Maybe we should stop giving liturgy a bad name, and be more like these guys.

At any rate, let’s allow Fr. Hannah to have the last word on giving liturgy a bad name…